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I haven't joined in the dialogue yet because so many people have said what I think in much more eloquent ways. But tonight while chatting with
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sarcasticchick and reading 's insightful analysis on the irreconcilable differences between fandom and FanLib, we realized something: This is old school Marxist thought in action. wrote: "[Our] social network is valued because it is a social network, not simply because it is associated with the production of product. This is what FanLib is not getting. Since in their world value is judged solely by the products produced, the idea that the social interactions themselves are highly valued in addition to the product is incomprehensible to them."Well, as soon as I saw that, I dusted off my old marxist texts from grad school, especially Erich Fromm, and reread what they had to say about alienation. And sure enough, this perfectly suits a Marxist analysis. We have to start with what Marx thought of historical materialism: the idea that we're shaped not just by what we produce but how we produce it, and that losing control of either our products or the means of production cannot help but separate us from our true selves. (German Ideology).
Our self-created system for sharing our stories, imperfect as it might be, seems to be as genuine an expression of what Marx considers wealth (and he's not talking in terms of monetary wealth here but social and intellectual self-realization) as any I've ever heard. The value of fandom's social ties is being social, as many (including
) have noted. Not that quality isn't an issue (as some, including meckinock, are rightly concerned); of course we want to read good stuff. But in fact, I believe that in a community like ours (or communities, I should say, because I don't mean to imply that fandom is anything more than a beautifully fragmented non-hierarchal 'verse), there's an incredible opportunity to improve writing skills, and to want to improve. We're not just clocking in from 9-5 here! I also think the reccers (not to mention flisters linking to good stories) make sure the cream rises to the top ... or at least that we don't miss the hot Severus Snape/Peter Petrelli/Samwise Gamgee handcuffs 3some that's going around. But underlying that, if you want it, is a place where authors and readers give and take in a dynamic very similar to what I think Marx meant when he wrote of how important equal exchanges are in social relations: "...love can only be exchanged for love, trust for trust ... Every one of your relations to man and to nature must be a specific expression corresponding to the object of your will, of your real individual life." (Econ & Phil Ms)In direct contrast to this is how capitalism deprives our work from being the expression of our creativity and self-realization: "The object produced by labor, its product, now stands opposed to it as an alien being … The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object and turned into a physical thing; this product is an objectification of labor." (Econ & Phil Ms)
This is what FanLib wants to do with fan-created stories. They don't care about the process of writing or reccing or reading, nor should they. The only use they have for stories (their "value proposition", as they keep saying) is as products to be utilized and commodified. In this effort, we are merely workers in their fanfic factory. It's not just that they want to make money off us (which they do) but worse, with ideas like "colouring in the lines", they're intent on devaluing the very process of creation itself—as well as our social interactions involved in feedback, reccing, etc. that have all grown up in fandom. This brings up what Fromm says is Marx's central critique of capitalism: "not the injustice in the distribution of wealth; it is the perversion of labor into forced, alienated, meaningless labor, hence the transformation of man into a 'crippled monstrosity.'" (Marx's Concept of Man)
In return for all these meaningless things like social interaction, they offer shinies like "special-ness", t-shirts, and a chance to touch the stars (metaphorically, I'm afraid). This is pure and simple fetishization—the rewards FanLib offers are a stand in for what we (or at least some of us) really want: good stories to read, a receptive audience for what we write, and a place where our creativity and uniqueness is valued.
And it's on this point that FanLib and fandom can never be reconciled, because it's really the fundamental debate between capitalism and the organic community (even what Marx would have called a communist one) that's grown up within fandom. That's not goign to be fixed by reaching out to us, by changing their TOS, not even by offering us pots of money for our stories. Not that we'd turn down pots of money, but it wouldn't replace what we have now.
I'm tempted to pump my fist and say "workers of the world unite." Fortunately, that seems unnecessary. As diverse as our fandoms might be, in the always reasoned objections to (and sometimes hilarious responses from) FanLib, we've found a common cause.
Edited to incorporate comments below
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May 27 2007, 09:27:29 UTC 5 years ago
- from an old neo-Marxist! *g*
May 27 2007, 09:36:27 UTC 5 years ago
- from an old neo-Marxist! *g*
I'm thrilled to see there are some of us still around!
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May 27 2007, 10:01:03 UTC 5 years ago
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May 27 2007, 10:19:02 UTC 5 years ago
Alienation has always been one of my favourite parts of Marxist theory, so I can't believe I didn't connect the dots until now.
the hot Severus Snape/Peter Petrelli/Samwise Gamgee handcuffs 3some
Is that a purely hypothetical example? Because I'd sure love to read it if it does exist.
May 27 2007, 18:01:49 UTC 5 years ago
Sadly, that's a hypothetical fic, but I'd like to read it too!
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May 27 2007, 10:35:12 UTC 5 years ago
May 27 2007, 17:48:04 UTC 5 years ago
You're definitely not alone. There are so many Marxist theories that Marx himself said he wasn't a Marxist. But I did think his concept of alienating us from the "profitable" part of our labour really fit here. Thanks for reading!
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May 27 2007, 11:12:50 UTC 5 years ago
As for that matter I am one of those "fringe people" that has been mentioned, and I know how difficult it is to build a social circle, especially when you don't contribute to the fandom in any hands-on way except with comments and as a beta.
May 27 2007, 17:31:47 UTC 5 years ago
Hey, I think "fringe people" are essential in fandom, and comments are its lifeblood. Don't sell yourself short!
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May 27 2007, 12:44:07 UTC 5 years ago
It makes good sense to me.
Laurie
May 27 2007, 17:45:56 UTC 5 years ago
May 27 2007, 12:52:22 UTC 5 years ago
i don't believe it's incomprehensible to them, it's just not their focus and it's not their world view. i believe they get it intellectually, but since "it's" not their goal, or, i don't know, their raison d'etre i guess, we [fandom and Fanlib] seem end up talking at cross purposes.
i think the core difficulty is that the sides are almost apples and oranges, in that Fanlib is a business venture but fandom is a passionate pastime, an armchair hobbyist love affair, and those two world views don't necessarily mix in all proportions.
and i think it's made more complicated not just because Fanlib's pretty arrogant in their lack of research and default assumptions, but there IS a percentage of fans out there that are, i don't know, almost not fandom in the way that we define it. there *are* people that want what Fanlib is offering, that *do* think what Fanlib is doing is cool, that don't self-identify with the established fandoms and archives and journaling sites, and that's giving Fanlib validation of their model.
so, i don't believe that they [Fanlib] "don't get" the difference; i think they simply don't get why we wouldn't want to blend them - business and pastime.
there's nothing wrong with capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money by trying to tap a zeitgeist, if you will. it's Fanlib's execution that's the problem. it's their dismissiveness of fandom's pre-existing societal rules, and their unwillingness to recognize that they are treading in dangerous waters, waters that fans have tried very, very hard to not swim in, that's the problem. they're lack of definitive, specific answers just comes across as patronizing and makes it all worse.
and i probably explained that rather poorly, for which i apologize in advance. i'm not trying to pick a fight or start a wank. i just don't see them as "the enemy". they're a potential problem, in that two worlds are colliding in a way that maybe ought not collide, but i don't think they're "bad" guys.
May 27 2007, 16:01:02 UTC 5 years ago
i agree with some of the things you've said. there's nothing wrong with capitalism and the desire to make money. i personally like money, especially when it gets me nifty things like books and coffee.
i think part of what is missing here is that applying marxist theory to say, a piece of literature or the FanLib situation doesn't define the situation as Marxist/Capitalist, etc... but it's taking the ideals of Marx and Engels and viewing the situation in those terms.
i would argue that you do support a marxist argument to an extent. the situation is apples to oranges. where FanLib seeks to exploit the work and devalue it, fandom writers typically write for the creation's sake (and the social network) and there is an immense value in that.
as a whole in a truly capitalist society, there is nothing wrong with what fanlib is doing. they are in it to make money. just like everyone else in the society.
viewing the fanlib situation through marixst shades, however, applies a different tone. fanlib are the wealthy leaders and fandom are the poor workers working devalued jobs profiting the leaders. fandom has about as an egalitarian society as you can get -altho you could argue the political nature of the SuperAuthors of various fandoms - stuff is produced at no cost and no profit, people can view it at no cost, and the return is free (recs, reviews, requests - hah! i created my own 3Rs of fandom). there is an entire society existing in fandom, one that is self-sufficient and places a value on 'production' superceding monetary incentive.
which...i'm prolly just restating what lilith said above in a far less capabable fashion so i'm going to quit now. ;)
and as a total side note that has nothing to do with lilith or her post...OMIGODS they're such bad guys. *ggg* to me, any entity which seeks to cheapen or discredit an author's (ie artist's) creation, imagination, and intellectual property is bad, no matter the goggles you view them with. it's no different than a painter submitting their portfolio to an art gallery to be shown (at a cover charge that the gallery gets to keep) but the art gallery maintains full rights to all the paintings (but if the work is copied, then the artist gets sued, not the gallery); can reproduce, change, and sell them and maintain all profits; and can dangle a new paintbrush in front of the artist as something they might get in thanks. any way you slice it, that's not how things are done, that's not how art is respected and it makes me extremely sad that some authors might fall victim and submit their portfolio like that.
but that's me and my protective author's soapbox.
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May 27 2007, 13:35:14 UTC 5 years ago
I haven't spent enough time on actual Marx (too many turn-off encounters with well paid young male academic marxists, snort, and too many agricultural workers in my family background), but you make a wonderful case here in so many ways.
Although I'm pretty sure Marx never allowed for icons snicker!
I finally dragged myself to bed about 1:30 a.m last night. Ditto on the reading flist before bed at this point!
May 27 2007, 17:04:15 UTC 5 years ago
Oh, I hear you! I had those turn-off encounters too at conferences. Fortunately at my grad school (you know where) the women were studying Marx, while the men espoused rational choice (the theory that every human action was based on self-interest ... and for those guys I'm sure it was) so my understanding of Marxism is firmly rooted in money, sex, and power.
I'm really glad you enjoyed this.
May 27 2007, 13:56:57 UTC 5 years ago
It's not just that they want to make money off us (which they do) but worse, with ideas like "colouring in the lines", they're intent on devaluing the very process of creation itself—as well as our social interactions involved in feedback, reccing, etc. that have all grown up in fandom
especially resonates with me. Thank you.
May 27 2007, 17:00:08 UTC 5 years ago
Thank you so much for reading!
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May 27 2007, 14:17:26 UTC 5 years ago
"...love can only be exchanged for love, trust for trust ... Every one of your relations to man and to nature must be a specific expression corresponding to the object of your will, of your real individual life."
This is a beautiful sentiment and reminds me of reading about how indigenous cultures lived in harmony with nature. If we'd listen to even some of their wisdom we wouldn't be in the mess we find ourselves at the moment - environmentally.
May 27 2007, 16:47:13 UTC 5 years ago
There are so many interpretations on his work that even Marx said "I am definitely not a Marxist." Unfortunately the abysmal failure of so-called communism in Eastern Europe and China have led to a blanket discrediting of his work, when just a cursory reading of his stuff shows that they were as far from his impressions of communism as you can get.
But yeah, it's the social aspects of Marx's writing that I find the most interesting -- and the most ignored. He himself would hardly be called an environmentalist (he was definitely a 19th century man, and shifting from farms to factories was hardly a pro-environmental move) but I think it'd be easy to apply a lot of his ideas about social reality and property and value to our environmental problems today.
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May 27 2007, 16:19:01 UTC 5 years ago
And that - right there - is why I love fandom. It makes people think.
May 27 2007, 16:37:53 UTC 5 years ago
Thanks for reading!
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May 27 2007, 18:51:24 UTC 5 years ago
I just peeked at your journal -- mind if I friend you?
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May 27 2007, 17:54:27 UTC 5 years ago
I think you're right, there is a fundamental difference. I wonder if they will give up.
May 27 2007, 18:46:13 UTC 5 years ago
Will they give up? I don't know. They've got a lot invested at this point. I can see them trying to hang onto it as long as possible.
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May 27 2007, 21:01:26 UTC 5 years ago
FanLib and the Titanic...and Marxism
A thoughtful commentary to add to the overall discussions. Thanks for posting.You've articulated very clearly some of what I was groping towards.
FanLib has difficulty engaging with this area of fandom because it doesn’t want to ‘engage’ - because that implies a give and take and at the heart of FanLib’s aims is a struggle for power.
FanLib sees this as being primarily a struggle for power over product (fic and fans), when it’s in reality more of a Titanic and iceberg situation – the visible ‘product’, the fic, is the visible tip of the iceberg. What’s below the waterline is the bulk of the fannish experience which is the pleasure of 'process'.
The myriad interest areas of fandom create their own processes/micro-climates that support their chosen ways of living/obtaining pleasure. We choose our way of pleasure, our process, as carefully as we do our OTP. We choose LJ or Yahoo groups or The Pit or to build/subscribe to more individual sites/archives - we create a process that contains the mix of reading/reccing/writing/social interraction/challenge/mutual support that suits us. The end usage of the fic will be a large part of the process for some and less so for others, but the key is that 'we' control our choice of process.
Potentially giving up the power over the process is what rankles - not the only thing, obviously.
In the end, I can't help feeling that FanLib's founders have under-estimated, amongst 'many' other things, the extent to which the flexibility of the process feeds the creativity, contributes to the product.
Perhaps we shouldn't be concerned about FanLib after all? It seems to be steaming ahead, heading for the iceberg all on its own.
May 28 2007, 02:49:35 UTC 5 years ago
Re: FanLib and the Titanic...and Marxism
I love the iceberg analogy! I can see FanLib steaming ahead, thinking that with their money and shinies it's just a matter of time before they're through this rough patch with the pesky LJers. But we're not going anywhere.The end usage of the fic will be a large part of the process for some and less so for others, but the key is that 'we' control our choice of process.
See, that's what I just should have written in the first place. It's a perfect summation of my thoughts. We take time to figure out at what level we approach and engage with fandom; it's not pre-cooked, boxed up, and handed to us with a side of fries. And yeah, I like having that control too!
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May 27 2007, 22:38:28 UTC 5 years ago
I know a lot of people want to talk this all out though, and you've given a great springboard with this post for some thoughtful, intelligent conversation. Bravo.
May 28 2007, 02:29:44 UTC 5 years ago
May 28 2007, 13:25:27 UTC 5 years ago
In return for all these meaningless things like social interaction, they offer shinies like "special-ness", t-shirts, and a chance to touch the stars (metaphorically, I'm afraid). This is pure and simple fetishization
Yes! It really does speak of a certain romanticized individualist narrative.
May 28 2007, 20:59:14 UTC 5 years ago
Thanks for reading! I hope you enjoy your studies of Marx. He's totally demonized over here in North America, but he had some absolutely brilliant ideas.
May 28 2007, 22:41:06 UTC 5 years ago
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/n
I believe Chris Williams intends to profit from fanfiction by destroying the way it is currently created and distributed, because it's a necessary step before he can rake in the dough.
I enjoyed your essay very much. But overall I find the subject depressing, because it brings me back to what
I want a socialist economy with free education and healthcare for all. I never thought I might have to add free porn to that list. :D
May 29 2007, 01:55:57 UTC 5 years ago
It is depressing to think Williams and his cronies are doing the same thing to our landscape (and in such a shoddy, inferior way!) and I agree that for this to work (for Williams or those that come after him) the way we currently produce and consume fanfic will have to be stopped. The only way their project will fail is if commodification doesn't work.
At the same time, I'm very heartened by the reaction here.
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May 29 2007, 06:03:44 UTC 5 years ago
May 29 2007, 14:08:20 UTC 5 years ago
Thanks for reading!
May 29 2007, 06:37:53 UTC 5 years ago
May 29 2007, 15:01:33 UTC 5 years ago
Fanlib is no better than fraudsters and thieves, attempting to twist the sincere enthusiasm of fans so that they can profit from shows/movies/novels they do not have rights to make money from.
I think whether you're a Marxist or not, you hit the nail on the head right there.
May 29 2007, 06:52:18 UTC 5 years ago
I wonder if a consideration of a post-Marxist model of corporate capitalism might be worthwhile. FanLib seems to be operating on a distinctly 20th-century understanding of "value" (and one which I suspect may be a matter of discrediting Marxism by cutting out any other possible configuration of value); "value = money," or maybe more accurately "value=profit". That is, under a contemporary corporate-state-capitalist model, fanfiction simply doesn't have value unless somebody's making money from it. Yes, it ends up being a circular definition of value (as anyone who's even remotely familiar with Marx will be aware -- including the promoters of this model), but it seems to be the implicitly claimed basis for FanLib's PR model.
I also wonder whether fandom might be modeled not as a Marxist but as an anarchist system -- given the awareness of the fandom "gift economy" of fanfiction and fanart in particular, the paradigm of scarcity is almost irrelevant for fan communities, particularly online (though the concrete "entrance cost" of internet access is a major limit on the extent of this economy). Of course, whether you're operating from a Marxist perspective, an anarchist one, or (as in my case) somewhere in-between, the capitalist model of value (personified in this case by FanLib) needs to create an artificial scarcity in order to inflate its own profits by manipulating the social relation of "value" with regards to (in this case) fanfiction.
May 29 2007, 12:46:03 UTC 5 years ago
Horses and stable doors, bolting of.
I wrote fanfics more than 20 years ago. There was a barrier then, in the cost of producing print fanzines. Fanfic zines were sold to cover costs. You even had works edited (and, I recall, one of mine needed the edit).The Internet, by allowing distribution and duplication for costs too small to individually account for, has changed the world of fanfics. It's changing a lot of other stuff. And Fanlib can be seen as coming out of the same frantic struggle to preserve an old market as did the DMCA and the Sony rootkit.
The fanfic community has found ways of replacing the old zine editors, and some of those ways are creeping into the world of traditional fiction-writing. A bunch of us here have read one author's books as they were written, giving feedback on how the story worked, and it's not so different from a few fanfics I've been involved with. (Though the sex in the fanfics was a lot more prominent.)
But physical books still need the traditional supporting structure. Print-on-demand fills an essentially economic niche: a particular combination of set-up costs and per-copy costs. When I turned the crank on my not-very-enchanted duplicator, I knew what the stencil cost, and I was sending out enough copies that the total run cost less than photocopying.
But I never figured in the cost of getting ink out of one's fur.
Anyway, I ramble. But the Internet has changed fanfic publishing, and the corporate world is scared of that change.
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May 29 2007, 11:44:34 UTC 5 years ago
May 29 2007, 14:26:33 UTC 5 years ago
Okay, maybe it's not that simple. I do know there's plenty of literature out there about early social development along gender lines - how girls are taught to share while boys are taught to compete. I think the fact that often women's labour is unpaid (and even when both members of a heterosexual couple work 40+ hours a week, it's the female that does many hours more of the housework) may also have something to do with the way women value things differently than men. And there's all sorts of theories about maternal instinct and the sacrifices that women will make in the name of the people/things they love. (Speaking as someone without a maternal bone in her body, I think that one's B.S. but it might be something to consider.)
I'm sure there are lots of other explanations that weave together, but I haven't had my coffee yet.
May 29 2007, 15:55:18 UTC 5 years ago
Marxist theory is a perfect way to analyze what Fanlib is attempting to do to fanfiction- commoditizing it! In short, finding a way to market and sell something that was previously free, and attempting to seduce fanfic writers and readers with a "value proposition" (that term's got to be straight out of the business plan) including (as you say) fetishized shiny objects instead of true fandom community. We write stories to freely share ideas; Fanlib is co-opting our work for its own profit and using it to attract advertisers to sell their products.
Fanlib's got it wrong. People don't write fan fiction because they want to get closer to the canon creators and "touch the stars." As you said, it's about participating in a community outside the market economy, and crossing boundaries that mainstream writers don't dare approach -in short, it's all about coloring outside the lines.
May 29 2007, 19:46:07 UTC 5 years ago
*g* Brilliant.
Thanks for reading! Hearing "value proposition" always irks me, but more so when I hear Williams use it. I always replace it with "how we plan to exploit you".
And yes, fandom is about crossing boundaries, absolutely. I bet if the TV producers ever really saw what real fans do with their characters, they'd run fast and far from this idea!
May 29 2007, 16:26:39 UTC 5 years ago
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